Adrian's note: "In 2008, after seeing me play at the New York Fretless Guitar Festival,
Edward Powell asked me to
send a track for his acoustic fretless page and complete the following ten
interview. After much haranguing, I relented. Although Ed dug what I sent
him, he felt it didn't fit the format of his page which is very much an
acoustic-centric page and we decided that Unfretted would be a better
home for it.
Incidentally, although this reads like a conversation between Edward and
I, Ed never actually appears in the interview. I ventriloquisted him. I am
Ed and Ed is me, at least in this context, a riff on Ed's 10 Questions."
( An hallucinated Edward Powell
interviews Adrian Romero )
Adrian: Hiya, Edward.
Ed: So I've got this list of questions, and I want you to
Adrian: OK then. If you insist.
Ed: - Alright, let's begin... Where were you born and where
did you grow up?
Adrian: I was born in Santa Fe, New Mexico. I grew up in Santa Fe, then La
Paz, Bolivia, then Santa Fe, then Pierre, South Dakota, then Santa Fe,
then Denver, Colorado, then Albuquerque, New Mexico, then Denver again.
Now I live in New York City.
Ed: What were your first musical influences?
Adrian: In Santa Fe, everybody played a nylon stringed guitar. Electric was
more exotic, as mariachi, classical and flamenco guitar are the prevailing
culture there. You heard this stuff, and Native American music all the
My family on both sides, especially my Dad's, are musicians. My
uncle played mariachi, my aunts played guitar, two of my cousins have
grown up to become professional musicians - one mariachi & the other a
latin percussionist and even he plays rancheras on guitar - and even the
ones who haven't become pros all play.
My Dad's cousin is a professional
country & rock musician, on my Mom's side there's a guy who played with
Santana, and a cousin who gigged on sax back in the disco era backing up
visiting acts like Gladys Knight. (His dad played clarinet.) Even my best
friend's Dad when I was 6 played guitarron in a mariachi band, and the
priest in one of the churches we went to played organ in his
own Latin trio, so it was literally everywhere.
But my biggest primary influence would be my Dad, and later my Mom, and
later still my brother who's a year and a half younger than me. My Dad
completed training in a seminary in Cincinnati to become a Franciscan
priest, so he was a trained singer with a huge voice, used to know how to
read that four line notation that preceded the 5 line that we use now. He
also played a little piano and had a steel string acoustic guitar that he
used to play. I started imitating him on my Grandmother's steel string
when I was around 3.
My Dad's primary influence on me though, is that he
loved the phenomenon of music, as opposed to music as an identity or
lifestyle accessory. Some people like a kind of music. My Dad loved music.
All kinds, and he played them all at room shaking volumes, singing along
at the top of his voice, and yelling at you over it about how great it
My Mom caught on to this, and played even more kinds at house shaking
volumes. My Dad gave me an outlook, and my Mom gave me a gut thing. And my
little brother was so naturally talented that I had to work my ass off to
do what he did without trying. Both of my brothers are natural musicians.
Ed: What instruments have you learned?
Adrian: I started with a nun in South Dakota, learning guitar chords on my
Dad's steel string when I was about 7. My Mom got tired of all the banging
I did and made me start taking classical guitar lessons back in Santa Fe
when I had just turned 8.
Three years later, I started playing electric bass
in school, (I became aware of the bass from Gene Simmons bass solos on
KISS Alive!, Dennis Dunaway on old Alice Cooper records, and from waking
up to the bass shaking the walls from my Dad's records on weekends. I
learned to recognize what song he was playing from the bass parts. Easier
with Chic and Earth, Wind, & Fire. Harder with things like Olivia Newton
John's country record...) and I decided I wanted to be a professional
musician, so I started trying to write music as well. I wrote some really
weird avant-garde shit for piano, and walkie-talkies and some guitar
things too. I still have that stuff. They sound like a kid wrote 'em.
The next year I started learning how to use a pick, and I got a cheap
electric guitar, a Kapa Continental. Played my first gig when I was 12.
(My biggest early electric guitar
influence is probably Stanley Clarke on that live version of "School Days"
from I Wanna Play For You. Guitar players would just go nuts when they'd
take a solo, and never subdivided the beat. Pure slop. The bass player and
drummer had to keep time, but the guitar players could play any fuck-all
bullshit. Stanley's piccolo bass solos sounded like what I thought a great
guitar solo should sound like. Spot on rhythm. I also like Donald Roeser
from Blue Oyster Cult for that same reason.)
Started playing slide with a plastic end I got off one of my Grandmother's
pans. Still have that. I also started playing drums, and was in the
percussion section in school - tympani & snare drum and all that, and
started playing acoustic bass in the orchestra as well. Mariachi in
church, rock on the weekends, classical guitar, drums & bass during the
week. When I was 15, I started playing the electric guitar tuned in 5ths,
which led to my acquiring an electric mandolin when I was 17. More
recently, I've been playing more acoustic mandolin, and I finally feel
comfortable saying I play it, as opposed to playing AT it. I also play
tenor guitar, which is tuned in 5ths like a mandolin. Once a year I go on
a ukulele binge, and write all sorts of stuff for it, but I have no
traditional Hawaiian vocabulary at all on it. The Kenyan musician Charles
Owoko Oinga taught me to play the orutu, a 1 string fiddle from Kenya. You
can hear a simple figure on it played against a cookie tin in my
deconstruct "Analord vs. the Devil" at about 3:19.
I've been learning my way around the Samchillian Tip Tip Tip Cheeepeeeee,
an instrument interface invented by Leon Gruenbaum that uses your computer
keyboard. The Sam is interval based. Keys are not specific notes, but
intervals up or down from the current pitch. It's a bit of a mindfuck, and
I say that lovingly. My second attempt at playing it is posted up at
on the track "Son of Samchillian." I am a
half-assed banjo, sitar, balalaika, bowed psaltery, berimbau, and requinto
player. Oh yeah, and this weird musical sculpture with strings that I
named The Machine Of Eternal Love.
Adrian: The fretless idea got into my head from bass first. I loved this
broadcast I taped of a live Police gig with Sting playing a fretless
Fender jazz bass, and I loved Percy Jones with Brand X, and later Pino
Palladino with Go West & Paul Young (boy is his talent wasted playing with
John Mayer in a blues trio!) But my primary fretless influence would have
to be Bill Laswell on the first Material record Memory Serves. That is
some weird shit, and Bill sounds like a low pitched mouth. I learned so
much about articulating like a voice from him. The other was a guy I still
haven't heard named Randy Roos who was profiled in Guitar Player magazine
back when GP was good and covered the broad range. Randy Roos had a double
neck with a fretted & a fretless guitar with a metal fingerboard. When I
was 14 or so, I used to scour the construction sites where houses were
being built, for tossed off materials, and I started building a fretless
electric with a metal fingerboard. It was crazy looking, I did like a
Jackson Pollock drip job on it. I wish I'd finished building that guitar.
Long story short, here's how I got my fretless going...When I was about to
turn 19, my Dad bought me a replacement for the plywood Ventura classical
I'd been playing since I was 8. Unfortunately, it wasn't a classical, but
a flamenco guitar, even had friction pegs, and to make matters worse it
was a terrible sounding flamenco. I used that guitar for a couple of years
before I saved up to buy a decent classical. Anyway, when I was about to
move to New York, I felt guilty about what instruments I was gonna bring,
and what I was gonna store, in particular about the guitar my Dad got me.
A terrible flamenco instrument, it didn't have that lifelong smoker sound
at all. I remember saying to myself, "It's so dull, it's like a fucking
oud..." and that was the light bulb moment. I immediately thought of the
Hamza al Din record I loved, and called my friend Paul Erhart about
defretting it. Totally saved it. He pulled the frets out, and replaced
each one with a matching sized strip of white maple. Seamless. Paul's
brilliant, and so detail oriented. He's completely nuts.
So, I used that guitar mainly to drop single line playing on ensemble
recordings like on "Crave" and "Wake Up!" from my Shirts Against Skins
record. I also used it on other people's records imitating a slide guitar
or pizzicato cello, and when I did a gig with my throat singing teachers
and their group Uragsha. But I've only used it as a solo instrument for a
few months now. I got asked to do the New York Fretless Guitar Festival
via my friend Yan Vagh whom I was hanging out with in Paris earlier this
year during a tour with Albert Bouchard from Blue Oyster Cult, he of "more
So, once I'd agreed to do that gig, I realized I didn't even know what I'd
do on fretless guitar as a solo instrument. Fretless bass I'd heard
applied to all kinds of ensemble and solo settings, and I'd heard the odd
single line solo in an ensemble setting on fretless guitar, (played some
myself,) but what I'd heard on solo fretless guitar up to that point
tended toward shapeless avant-garde free improv with a lot of sliding
around, and I didn't want to do that, so I realized I was gonna have to
settle on my own
vernacular for the thing. It ended up being very close to classical guitar
but with a different set of articulations, even less sustain (which is
great for sounding like pizzicato strings like cello, viola and violin,)
and real difficulty in playing chords in tune. The piece I was happiest
about, was all chords, no sliding around at all, with the focus being on
playing in tune, and the harmonic aspects of the writing which was extra
hard because of the limits set by having the thing tuned like a sitar, all
Cs & Gs except for the high string which was an E. (On sitar, it's an F.)
It's hard to find varied chord voicings when all your strings are tuned to
the same two notes. Originally, I went with the sitar-ish tuning coz I
thought the music I was gonna write would be lots of single line with
drone bass strings. It was only after I started writing, that I realized
that I was writing
polyphonic classical guitar-ish stuff, and that with about 4 months to
figure out that concept, write pieces and learn to play them, I had
screwed myself! I finished the music though, a few days before the
festival. Came out OK.
Jeff/Jahloon who was mc'ing the festival said some
very kind stuff about me when I was done playing. I played both nights,
and my experience the first night was that a pickup under the saddle on an
acoustic fretless is a bad thing. Amplifies the open strings
disproportionately. Makes it hard to play anything balanced. In the
future, I'd just mic it.
Ed: Do you play also electric fretless guitar or only
Adrian: I've been talking to Ned Evett about glass fingerboard electrics.
He's pioneering that shit. He's about to convert an Ibanez Artist for me,
so I'll have a fretted and an unfretted version of my favorite electric
guitar. Also, I just did a gig with my friend Ken Butler. He's a
sculptor/musician/conceptual artist, and he's invented all these crazy
instruments like the bicycle wheel which is fretless. I can get around on
some of his instruments a little. Ken's brilliant, and such a positive
cat. Ken & a friend of his filmed the first two times I ever picked that
instrument up, and they're both posted on the youtube.
Ed: What are your main musical influences right now?
Adrian: Nothing in particular anymore. I'm not trying real hard to sound
anybody. I had been listening to a lot of Deicide the death metal band on
my ipod! But I wouldn't say that's influencing anything directly, I'm just
getting into the energy. Mostly, I'm just influenced by standards when
people nail 'em. Like my Mom bought a Pollock poster at the MoMA when she
was here last week. Jackson was a bad motherfucker. Or I saw Randy Newman
play a month ago. It's just seeing the standards set by someone amazing at
their thing, and it hits you in the gut because it's so good, and it makes
you wanna nail something too, you know? I saw a great soccer game last
night. Amazing head to head passes. And Barack Obama got elected, which
gives me a great faith in the common sense of my country, and in
particular, those young first time voters who got so involved. I hope they
stay that way their whole lives, and do some crazy wonderful things with
their time here. Anyway, that makes me wanna write some bad shit and play
it hard, whatever the kind of music may be.
Ed: How do you decide what kind of music you're going to
Adrian: With writing, pretty much, if something pops into my head, and it
sounds like a record playing, meaning a complete idea, I write it down or
record it, and finish it if I have time. Even if it's a kind of music that
I don't like, or find cheesy, I still jot it down or record it. Who am I
to turn down things that sound pretty well formed & complete, no matter
what they are? Never look a gift-horse in the trousers, uh...wasn't it
Catherine the Great of Russia who said that?
Ed: Next question...are there any other instruments you
would like to
learn to play?
Adrian - My sister-in-law gave me her old flute. I rock the Native American
cedar flute a little, and the penny whistle. I'd like to be able to rock
the flute. I wish my piano playing and my drum kit playing were
better... there's so much on the kit that I can hear in my head, but can't
execute. But I all ready play a lot of shit, and it's hard enough
maintaining skill level on that stuff when I spend more time writing than
playing. I get up on the Samchillian here and there, or my dumbek, but
really, I need to just keep playing the stuff I'm good at. Classical
guitar, electric guitar, bass, and a little mandolin all need the upkeep.
And in any case, you never master one instrument, so why dilute that?
You're always discovering new shit. That's as long as you never stop
hitting your head against those ceilings. Pursuing that shit will last
your whole lifetime.
Ed: What do you feel are the main differences between the
the acoustic fretless guitar?
Adrian: Sounds different. Sustains different. Electrics compress more, and
make voice separation in chords more difficult. String spacing is
different. One favors a pick. One favors fingerpicking. Each suits
different types of music. Same as fretted. I have yet to see if this is
the case with electric, but the hardest thing about acoustic fretless is
balancing volume between open strings which tend to jump out, and fingered
notes which tend to be softer. You get so much brightness and volume from
that hard metal surface that a fret gives you. Makes chord arpeggios with
open and fingered strings hard to pull off.
As far as the sustain issue...I have read many reviews of instruments
where players complain about fretless guitars, saying that they have no
sustain. That's because they have no frets! Like a cello played without a
bow. The trick, in all cases, is to exploit what something does, and not
try and make it do what it won't. Same with people & situations. Cherish
what they got, and don't expect things that aren't there. Best case
scenario is the trick. Focus on the strengths. Like acoustic bass without
a bow...that's a whole sound right there. It's iconic.
You gotta problem solve... the guitar transcriptions of the Bach Cello
suites have more ornaments than the cello versions do. Why? Because a
bowed cello can be made to hold a note indefinitely. A classical guitar's
notes die quickly, and you gotta fill the space. Same thing with the
Aranjuez Concerto by Rodrigo. He gave the melody in the 2nd movement to
the oboe. That melody would've died on the guitar. Instead, the guitar
enters afterward, playing a very
ornamented, note heavy variation of the melody. Works like a charm.
The other trick is to play very few notes, but to connect them in your
mind, and with your left arm. When you play classical guitar, you create
the feeling of lyricism by hearing the notes connecting in your head even as they
physically die out, and not shifting violently with the left arm. If you
do it right, and mentally connect the notes, and physically connect the movements, the listener will hear
notes connecting, even if they in reality, don't. You know when I knew Bela
Fleck was great? When I heard him play a ballad. Banjo sustains even less
than a guitar, and he played this very slow moving melody, and created the
sense of connecting notes, like a singer would be able to do.
So that's two ways to approach the sustain issue.
Fundamentally, the main difference between all guitars, even two of the
same type, is mechanical. Matters of size, shape, location and distance.
And you have to adjust the way you play when you switch.
Ed: What do you feel is the future for the acoustic
Adrian: The shelf-life of all fretless guitars will depend entirely on the
music that's written for them, not on the instruments themselves. All
sorts of people create wonderful musical interfaces all the time, and they
have for centuries. The issue, is whether or not the instrument is used to
produce a popular, or at least great piece of music, stimulating interest
in the instrument, and then, how difficult the instrument is to learn that
piece on. It's always been that way. Certainly it doesn't help the
fretless guitar to be relegated to avant-garde music.
Look at the theremin. It's still around, but mostly as a noisemaker. Only
a handful of people can play it. But horror films and Jimmy Page did more
for it than the amazing Clara Rockmore, whom nobody can sound like. Or the
synthaxe. Too hard for most guitar players to make the transition to, but
look what Allan Holdsworth and Future Man can do on it. But, they couldn't
sell them, so they don't make them anymore.
Benjamin Franklin invented the glass harmonica. I believe Mozart wrote
something for it. Beethoven wrote something for this percussion gadget
that was like the first drum machine, but it took the European synth folks
in the 70s like Kraftwerk and then hip hop to make the drum machine a part
of the vernacular.
Ed: Did you choose to play the acoustic fretless guitar, or
did it choose you?
Adrian: Guilt chose me. Catholicism made me come up with the idea of taking
the frets out.
You know, to me it's just another guitar. And every kind of guitar has a
varying technical approach that gives you access to a particular sound. As
a kid, I realized that some kind of guitar was used by more people to play
more kinds of music than any other instrument except the voice, and that
if you learned the different ways to approach it, you could hang with
anybody a little. Obviously, I'm not equating this with growing up in a
particular place and absorbing the soul of a place, but it was a way in
the door, and a way to get closer to people in places remote from you and
your environment and understand them a little better and learn from them.
The fretless is cool in that way. It puts you in touch with other kinds of
music and other
non-western traditions. It puts you in touch with articulations you can't
play as naturally on fretted, (although it's cool to try.) But you can and
should, also use it to approach kinds of music that are closer to home,
coz conversely, it's just an instrument.
That means stuff like pop music, straight ahead jazz...more traditional
modes of expression. If you can only play crazy outside jazz on a fretless
guitar, then the instrument fails. If you can play anything on it, then it
succeeds. If you use it primarily as an instrument to perform glissandos
on, then you're not really utilizing the instrument fully, and you aren't
contributing to the longevity of the instrument. That implies trying to
play chords, and being able to shift positions without sliding on notes.
Orchestral string players and fretless electric bass players are expected
to play in tune and accurately without decorative articulation.
Legitimizing the fretless guitar requires that you be able to do the same.
Otherwise, it's just a gimmick.
Ed: OK, this is a 3-parter... What is your philosophy of
music... what is
the purpose behind why you play music... what is the reason (if any)?
Adrian: My wife and my youngest brother have a bullshit meter for music. If
they believe someone, that's the selling point. She'll be cool with
something that maybe isn't her thing, if she believes the person
performing it. My brother has no tolerance for falsehood and cowardice in
music. My teacher in college articulated it this way - he said that music
is a quality that is either present or not present in the PERFORMANCE of a
piece. I love what Stanislavski the acting guy said, "Love the art in
yourself, not yourself in the art." If what you're putting out is some
exhibitionist shit, or real cut off from your insides and guarded, it
won't speak to people. But if it's real, people are gonna relate to it and
My philosophy of music... I don't know if I've ever narrowed that down to
a list. I just kinda do my thing, but let's see... I don't care what
people look like. And that seems to matter a lot these days. I only care
what they sound like. My friend Bill Lebeda just gave me a book by Frank
Portman called King Dork, and I read a sentence that I liked last night.
This kid is talking about himself, and he says, "I don't wake up every
morning and put on a music-genre-oriented-youth-culture-Halloween
costume." I remember reading an interview with this 80s punk icon
describing being a kid and discovering 70s punk rock, and discarding his
old records. (Now of course, he listens to everything.) I never went
through a period where I got into one kind of music to the exclusion of
all others. Maybe it's coz I started playing early. I dunno. When I heard
the Ramones and the Sex Pistols for the first time, I just thought, "Cool.
More great music!" When I discovered Ethiopian food, I still loved my
Mom's enchiladas. With music, it was the same thing. Different kinds, each
hitting a different part of you, and as humans, we got a lotta parts, and
there's a sound for all that shit.
I never got into music as an identity. I remember talking to this grad
student who was studying classical guitar, and somehow he'd mentioned that
he used to really like the Sweet. I'd never met anyone who liked them
before, and since I had collected all their records, I asked him which
ones he had. And he said, "I don't remember...I don't really listen to
that stuff anymore." So I asked him what he listened to, and he said,
"Classical." And I felt kinda sorry for the guy, because he felt he had to
disassociate himself from what got him into music in the first place in
order to fit into this notion of himself as a serious practitioner of
classical music. Happens with lots of kinds of music. I can't entirely
blame the guy. There's this bunch of hoops you're made to jump through to
try and get peer approval and feel like you're really doing the thing
you're trying to do. Gotta get permission to make a particular sound coz
you don't wanna risk someone calling you not-authentic. Cultural
dictatorships. This record is jazz. This record is not. Iggy Pop's got
that song where he sings "...and I'm trying to be a person." And that
should be enough, but nope, gotta be validated by a gated community for
authenticity of the costume. And most of them have never written a note.
And so what if they have? Is it any good? Does it live up to the snobbery?
Anyway, what were we talking about?
Adrian: Right. Well, that's pretty simple, you know? I hope you sound great,
coz I don't give a fuck what you look like.
But there are a lot of forces that want you to reduce yourself to wearing
a costume and doing a shtick, the idea being that the less there is to
you, the easier it'll be to shove you down people's throats. And you're
fucked if you've got anything more than that going on. It's where the
music business has gotten us. I grew up watching everything I loved
crammed into tinier and tinier boxes and marketable sub-genres, so some
asshole could target someone's wallet. It's like radio, which used to be a
freer thing, getting turned into a tiny playlist that gets shoved down
your throat until you don't even pay attention to it anymore. And that's
just wrong, coz music was put here to fuck you up!
Have you looked on Wikipedia at how many sub-genres of heavy metal there
are? None of that shit is that fucking different. You used to just credit
the variants to the individuality of the artist in question, to their
particular bent. Now there's this rush to create a sub-genre around it, a
club. And that's just the result of being marketed to for so long that we
actually think that shit IS the art form. It's not. It's some asshole's
box they wanna shove it in. What the hell is math rock?! Is Chick Corea
math-jazz? No, it's jazz as he conceives it. And you know? Someone's not
gonna like it, and out comes the, "Well, you can't call that record jazz,
coz I don't like that record, and I don't want it to have the same name as
the records I do like."
It's like all the criteria that people come up with to describe a
particular ethnic group. Everybody's got so many little personal
prejudices, that no one can come to a real consensus, coz that'd have to
be too inclusive. So everybody's got a group they want to claim to be a
part of, but they don't want anyone else to be in it with them, you know?
Either you're too light, or you're too dark, or some other stupid shit
that excludes you. That's a worldwide phenomenon, and still prevalent
despite the fact that they've traced the Y chromosome all the way back
showing that we're all the same shit, with some environmental adaptations
thrown in that end up making us look different from each other, which
incidentally, is fucking cool. You know, a person is a person, and music
Obviously, some general
categorization with respect to place and culture and all is one thing,
that's general anthropology which also needs to be observed skeptically
for traces of colonial arrogance, but this micro-shit... it's just fucking
reductive and is at the root of people fighting one another. Back on to
the music...if you play classical guitar, you probably play some stuff
from the Baroque period, some from the Classical period, some Romantic,
some Renaissance, some serial music, and all that stuff's under the
heading of Classical Music. And that's the way it should be, coz then you
can say "I like Stravinsky, and I like Ravel, but I don't really like
Debussy." With the boxes, you're buying into the sub-genre, and the
community, and the costume, and human beings are broader than that. So
you'd have to like Debussy if you're gonna be into Ravel, coz that's
French Impressionism, but you can't be into Stravinsky, coz that's 20th
century Russian. That's how new music is being sold to you now. And god
forbid you like more than one kind of music... what radio stations are
gonna be there for you? Even satellite radio is sub-genre land. I just
wanna hear shit that I like, I don't care what KIND of music it is.
You remember when it was no going back from formatting for radio?
Ed: Early 80s...?
Adrian: Yeah, like late 70s into then. There were two cool songs about that
whole scene. Elvis Costello's "Radio, Radio," and "The Spirit Of Radio,"
by Rush. I like that play on "The Sound Of Silence" in "Spirit," but yeah,
both songs are very romantic about the experience of listening to the
radio, and then pissed off about the formatting, and corporatization, and
the charts as god instead of the music it's supposed to represent. That's
where all that boxing in started to snowball on a business level, and now
regular folks are being raised to believe that they belong in a particular
Ed: Yeah, separate from everyone in the other boxes.
Adrian: Yeah, and in order to keep selling to the people in that box, the
music has to have a lifestyle attached to it, and almost has to be a
commercial for that lifestyle, and be a magnification of that. So all the
songs have to sound alike. Do people really wanna hear an entire album of
the same song?
I love the phenomenon of music itself. I don't care about being metal, or
punk rock, or classical & Eurocentric, high art or lowbrow, or any of
that bullshit. Music is bigger than all of that nonsense. That's why I love
that Stanislavski thing about, "Love the art in yourself." I like music
that's about music, and not music that's about being famous. I don't like
records that sound like commercials for music. A lot of modern productions
are so squashed and over the top loud and glisten-y that I keep waiting
for someone to start singing about burgers and botox and shaved genitalia
and being really good looking in a kind of featureless way. We're kinda
becoming a culture of pedophiles. A lot of classic records have a kind of
old soul mentality.
Last part of your question...I play music coz I'm wired that way. I have a
radio playing in my head 24 hours a day that I have to ignore to talk to
people. It's probably a chemical condition. Also, I like the way it
What about you, Edward?
Ed: Well, I'm Canadian.
Ed: Uh..., last question. Who are your 5 favorite
musicians of all time?
Adrian: I think it was Walter Peyton who said in a Playboy magazine
that Ron Voller read to me that he didn't understand this need for lists,
and that it's such a male thing, and that he didn't get the point of it.
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